00.32.25 4078 “How long were you actually in the apartment for then?”
Reply “One or two minutes maybe. I remember looking, they’ve got, all the rooms had sort of a book supply and so, because we were spending all this down time at lunchtime looking, you know, doing a bit of reading or maybe sunbathing, but some reading, so I sort of remember sort of looking along their bookshelf as I walked through to see if there was anything that I could sort of take to read for the next couple of days, erm, so it might have been, you know, a minute or two”.
4078 “And you said when you went in you went in through the patio door?”
4078 “Or the poolside door?”
4078 “How did you know to go through there?”
Reply “Well Kate said that that one was open”.
4078 “And when did she say that?”
Reply “When I offered to go and, erm, go and look”.
Reply “Because I said do you want me to check the kids and she said yeah the patio door is open”.
Reply “I mean, it was closed, it wasn’t sort of open”.
4078 “And I am assuming it is a slide open door, is that correct?”
00.33.23 4078 “So you slid the door open?”
4078 “And you have walked through the apartment and you said there was a light on?”
4078 “A lamp, sorry, a table lamp?”
Reply “Yeah, I think sort of, there was like a little sort of round sort of table like this and then, erm, sort of a small lamp”.
4078 “So, as you go though there, whereabouts would the lamp be?”
Reply “So you come in, the steps would bring you up to this end of the patio, oh sorry, that’s the side street so it comes up to this bit and you go in through (inaudible), erm, I’m not sure which one of those, I think it was this left one here and there’s sort of like, erm, a sort of a book shelf here”.
4078 “Is that the one that you looked at to see what books?”
Reply “Yeah, and there was, I think there was a sofa here and a sofa here, it’s either one of those two corners, it was a vague memory of it, that there was like a sort of little side light, a sort of reading light that was on”.
Reply “Erm, then as you approach this, because of this wall here, you approach the room pretty much, you had to go in from that angle, so you get a clear view right into the middle of the room. And one of the things that completely floored me in the, in the interview, the second interview there, they showed me a picture and they showed a picture of the two cots, you know, there’s wardrobes along this side, slap bang on the right here, and they said, well how can you see it, I think maybe it was an aguish thing at the time, but I couldn’t quite get at what they were, what they were really asking me, I mean, how, because they showed me this picture and you kind of accept it as this is the real situation and it took a while to, well, no, actually, the actual, the original Police Force actually moved them when they cleared the room, they moved them out the way, but, you know, I presume it was just a sort of, a sort of technique within the questioning to sort of make you unsettled, but it was sort of quite unsettling, along with this picture of where the shutters are. But, erm, you know, you wouldn’t, the cots were in the middle of the room and of course, you know, there’s no way you’d put them at the side, you know, to put your children in and be able to walk round and get them from both sides. But you walk from here and I probably got to about here, erm, you know, to the room”.
00.35.30 4078 “So you didn’t cross the threshold?”
4078 “And you say the cots were in the middle of the room?”
4078 “What angles were they at?”
Reply “Erm, you could definitely see, see the sides, so they’re either along, I think because of the angle that you approach it, I think they were just, you know, in the line with the long axis of the room, but there was a gap between the two and the sides are mesh, erm”.
Reply “Yeah (inaudible)”.
4078 “So you saw the sides. Do you remember which way the children were facing in the cots?”
Reply “No, it was just, you could just see the shape and bits of breathing”.
Reply “I mean, I, for some reason I imagine that the children’s heads were towards the, towards the window, but I don’t know whether that’s just because I assume that’s the way I would put them down”.
00.36.22 4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “Because I’ve seen it. I don’t think I could see that much, the view”.
4078 “You can’t remember?”
Reply “You could see the shapes and you could see they were breathing, you’d stop and look and you could see they were sort of breathing, but in terms of sort of features and standing over and seeing where their heads were, and I couldn’t say whether it was Sean or Amelie that was closest, it was just sort of, erm, sort of children in cots”.
4078 “The door, it opens the way it is shown on this diagram, does it?”
Reply “Yes, it opens to, back onto that wall”.
4078 “But you didn’t touch the door?”
4078 “You didn’t need to because it was already open?”
Reply “It was already open. I mean, it must have been, it must have been sort of at that sort of angle, so it’s just over forty-five degrees”.
4078 “Yeah, so it is slightly over half open?”
4078 “Okay. What else could you see within the room?”
Reply “Erm, there was a bed on the far side underneath the window, erm, and you could see, you could just see the tail of this bed here, just the edge of it”.
4078 “Sorry, I am not familiar with the room”.
Reply “Sorry, the bed is perhaps, this bed, there is a bed along, you can see most of it, apart from what was obstructed by the, by the cot”.
Reply “There was a bed there. There was build-in wardrobes, I think probably where that dotted line is there”.
00.37.41 4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “Erm, and there’s another bed along here, which is where Madeleine was supposed to be, erm, and you could just maybe catch the, it was probably set back a little bit, so you could just sort of catch about sort of six or eight inches of the, so you could see the outside corner, the corner deepest into the room”.
4078 “Okay. So concentrate, if you can, on what you saw of that bed and tell me what you saw?”
Reply “Nothing, apart from that, it’s just the end of the bed and that’s, and that was it. And so it as just like the outside corner, there was no, couldn’t see the whole length, couldn’t see colours or legs or anything draping over it”.
4078 “Did it have bed clothing on it, can you remember, or was it just a plain mattress or some sort of mattress cover or (inaudible), can you remember?”
Reply “Erm, my, erm, this would be sort of a guess, I think what I could see was a sheet and I think it was a metal base coming round the corner, but I couldn’t swear to that. There was only a small bit that was visible”.
Reply “I don’t think it was a bare, a bare mattress, I’m fairly sure there’d have been a sheet on it, but I don’t remember anything sort of as bulky as a duvet over it”.
4078 “Okay. And is there anything else you can say about what you saw of that bed?”
Reply “No, erm, I don’t remember there being a pattern on it, it was, it was just sort of a glimpse and I don’t know how reliable my memory is for this, I think it was plain coloured, maybe, if I was to go for it, I’d say it was sort of a light blue, but I really don’t recall anything specific about the end of that bed, apart from just registering that there was a bed against that wall and that’s probably where Madeleine was”.
4078 “Okay. And you saw the side of the cots and you saw the shapes and knew that they were both breathing?”
Reply “Yeah, I mean, you’ve got two cots, you know, along this side, you’ve got the short, the long axis along the long room and the short end, which I think is (inaudible), I think we had a similar in, erm, with G***e, and there’d be a slight spacing and then netting and so, from the side, you’d see, erm, part of this one, slightly obstructed by this one, but enough to see through the grill, erm, and this one you’d see through the, through the mesh side, you’d see the kids”.
00.40.06 4078 “And the lighting was sufficient within the room that you could make out what it was?”
Reply “You could make out that it wasn’t blankets and just something piled there, you could see the chest moving”.
4078 “Okay. Could you see anything else from where you were stood?”
Reply “The rest is just sort vague impressions of, erm, of the colour of the curtains, I couldn’t tell what particular pattern, but I just remember green and yellow with that. And there may have been a duvet on the back bed behind the two cots. But nothing else specific”.
4078 “Have you been into that room again since that moment?”
Reply “We didn’t on the night. Erm, I don’t think so. I think it was it was then always cordoned off. I mean, I know that they, Gerry and Kate were told to get their things out of there because they were going to have to move rooms and then, and I saw that photograph of the, of the cots moved to the side, and they then sort of, erm, under instruction, were asked to move things out of that room, but I think they just took sort of essentials, because they then went up to, erm, Dave and Fiona’s room later that night, and I don’t think I’ve been back in that room”.
4078 “I am sorry, you already said how long you think you were in the apartment for, I have forgotten?”
Reply “It can’t have been more than a couple of minutes, because, erm, I mean, there was no, you know, it was just sort of a check and then it was back really. I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren’t down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors”.
00.41.58 4078 “So, like everybody that has had anything to do with this inquiry, you must have played back in your own mind the different possibilities of what could have happened?”
4078 “And what conclusions have you come to, in so much as, if there had been somebody else in the apartment, would it have been possible for them to have been there without you seeing them?”
Reply “Erm, it’s possible, in that, just in sort of, whether it’s technically possible, because this kitchen, there’s like a sort of breakfast bar there or an opening there, I mean, you, and, you know, when you come up to here, somebody could be hid behind those units there, there would be no problem. They could have been, I can’t remember where the bed is in this room, because it was just a glimpse as I turned round, it may be out there, but possibly there is space in there. And then there was this question of whether somebody could hide in the wardrobes, and I suppose they were physically big enough for them to be able to do it. I mean, you know, since, everybody talked about sort of what happened, you know, and, yeah, I talked in an interview about whether I thought Madeleine was gone at that point, and I said, well I thought she was, but then I knew that Jane had seen this, had earlier seen this person and she described pyjamas and everything, before she knew what Madeleine actually was wearing, so when that sort of came out then it seemed fairly likely that things had already been done, which I think is partly why it’s sort of been easier for me to deal with the ‘what ifs’ than it is for her, because it seemed like Madeleine had already gone at that point, but at the beginning, when I didn’t know, that was awful, when Kate came back and said, she’s gone, and they were going, did you see her, and I had to say, well, no, I just made sure everything was alright and that was, that was awful, that moment”.
4078 “Can you make any comment on the door or, erm, is this a window as well, it is not, is it?”
Reply “Erm, there’s a window, I think, well from the drawing I don’t recall it as a window there, that’s the front door here, then you come round past the shutters, and we listened outside here, and the front door there. I, it’s, I can’t say, I don’t recall it being open, I’m sure, I presume that I would have seen it, but I can’t guarantee that it wasn’t, erm, it wasn’t shut at that point. Erm, but, you know, there was nothing, it didn’t feel odd when you went into the, erm, into the apartment, it was sort of quiet and, you know, sort of comfortably sort of dark”.
00.44.26 4078 “Is there anything else, sort of trying to draw that moment out for as long as we possibly can and just go”.
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
4078 “Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell anything?”
Reply “No, no, we’ve talked about that before, I didn’t smell anything, I mean, I could see the children breathing, but I didn’t clock it as abnormal, erm, it’d be completely to speculate to say whether their breathing was fast or, I couldn’t say, I mean, they were breathing and that’s what, you know, and that was what I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I’d been in and then suddenly somebody’s saying Madeleine’s missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh”.
4078 “Okay. Did you leave by the patio door?”
Reply “Yeah, back the same way, because this door would have been locked and that’s the shortest way anyway of coming through there, so I would have gone back out the same door”.
4078 “And back to the table?”
4078 “Okay. We will move back then from that check. I am sure you would have already mentioned, but did you see anybody?”
00.45.51 4078 “Hear any cars?”
Reply “No. No, I mean, as I say, it was nearly always completely deserted, there was very few people in the resort, erm, you know, you only rarely saw, you know, occasionally people move about on the street and that was mostly during the day, erm, everybody else seemed to sort of eat earlier or, erm, used the baby sitting or whatever service, there were a few people about between and there wasn’t really much of a thoroughfare for, erm, for traffic, so nothing that stuck out”.
4078 “In know specifically one of the Portuguese questions was, did you hear footsteps or car doors opening and shutting?”
Reply “No (inaudible)”.
4078 “Okay. And you attended the Tapas Bar. And what was happening there at that stage when you got back?”
Reply “Erm, well everybody, apart from Russell and I were back, so I arrived back before Russell, erm, I think I said, all quiet, or something to, erm, to, you know, Kate and Gerry and just sort of sat back down and we carried on and I told Jane that E**e had been sick and so later on when his food came, we said, he’s going to be late, can we sort of send it back or you just keep it warm and he’ll have it later on, erm, we had a conversation as normal, I just remember launching into this Jane relieving Russell”.
4078 “We touched on that yesterday”.
Reply “It probably came up but seemed inappropriate to mention. But, erm, she went off to relieve Russell, as it were, to sort of take over, erm, sort of duties and make sure that E**e was alright and then Russell came back and they actually redid his food, erm, I mean, he was eating it when the next sort of checks went, which were about half an hour later”.
4078 “So you think it was about half an hour between your check?”
Reply “It would have been around that sort of time and the reason I think thirty minutes is because I, I don’t know whether this is memory now or whether it’s since we’ve been talking about it, Gerry said or Kate said, it’s about thirty minutes since the last check, we ought to go, so that’s why I think it’s thirty minutes, erm, because I think that main course would have taken a bit longer because, you know, Russell came back and we started chatting, you know, how’s E**e and all that sort of thing, erm, so, I think he was still eating at the time, so we waited until he’d finished before we went”.
00.48.23 4078 “And then who did the next check?”
Reply “Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we’d, I didn’t, we didn’t all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she’s gone, Gerry Madeleine’s gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you’d expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I’m almost a hundred percent sure we didn’t go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I’m not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she’s gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn’t to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can’t remember, but I remember seeing them, you know, most of the time and then for the rest of the evening they were stood, you know, at the doorways to the apartments, erm, we went back round, erm, and everybody was just running around like sort of headless chickens, so I remember saying, you know, we need a plan, I mean, I don’t know why I said that but I think I’d just read too many novels, because everybody just seemed to just sort of run, there was sort of no organisation, you know, and it was obviously important that we, you know, we did something constructive rather than just running around looking in the hedgerows if, you know, what we, because we all went through this, you know, is she really gone, surely she must have just sort of wandered off and we’re just going to find her and she’s going to be there, but, you know, she’s like a four year old child and, you know, she, I mean, all the doors were shut, she wasn’t really going to run off and then Jane said, the shutters up, and, you know, we sort of scarpered and Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it’s difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten”.
00.51.10 4078 “Quite quick then?”
Reply “Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you’ve got to phone the Police, you know, a child’s been taken, and they went, oh no, she’s probably just sort of woken up and he thought she’s probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he’d ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don’t know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn’t in the apartment, but we were still sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search nearby roads. And so we, erm, I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although I couldn’t say why I thought she would because we’d only been there once on that night before and maybe she’d been for the restaurant, so we’d only been at the initial welcoming, that was the only time that we went for that meal in the evening because the food wasn’t great there, it wasn’t quite up to the MARK WARNER resorts of, but anyway, so we did other things and that’s why we liked the Tapas, so there was no reason really why she’d have gone up there, but it was a, just a different route. So a lot of it in terms of timing is blurred, but up and onto the top road to the Millennium Restaurant, which is pretty much you come up and along this road for about sort of five or ten minutes and sort of this end of town, let them know that a little girl was missing and then gone back through the back streets, down on the beach and then back to the apartment. Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there’s somebody that’s saying there’s a child missing, because by that time there were lost of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we’d called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it’s Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where’s the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm, you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset, it was sort of, you know, it was sort of pretty sort of upsetting, because you didn’t know what to really say, because you can’t really say, you know, it’s going to be okay, because, you know, you assume the worst and it’s going to be particularly awful, you know, it’s going, you know, some, erm, person’s got, (inaudible), some xxxxxxx’s got my, you know, got my daughter and she’s so innocent. And, I mean, at that point, we were sort of in a room next door, you know, the bedroom across, and we thought maybe it could have been G***e quite easily. Erm, but, you know, there’s, you know, seeing them normal all the time and then to go to that was just, you couldn’t act it, it just wasn’t, it was just, you don’t know how you’re going to react in that sort of situation, but, erm, you know, it was just, we’ve already mentioned the sort of frightening and you wanted to be away from it, but you wanted to try to do something to make it better, but you couldn’t”.
00.55.19 4078 “You feel helpless?”
Reply “You are and yet people on the outside of it, erm, responded in a much more practical way, of course, they would do, but with decent suggestions about doing this, doing that, you know. But, erm, we were there about sort of eleven, ten past eleven when the GNR sort of Police arrived and there was two of them in a Police car. Somebody’s asked whether the siren was on and I think the lights were flashing but I don’t remember, and I may have heard the siren in the distance, but I can’t recall. So they arrived just about five minutes after Gerry and I had been there. And one of the cleaning ladies I think came to translate, I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I’m not sure, but she was there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the father. And they put him in the car and drove back up to the apartment. And then, erm, after that we did more headless running around, checked on G***e, erm, you know, at times we were sort of like crossing each other, there was Dave, and running on my own, and sort of the other way, and I then went out on the coast road a bit further down, erm, I don’t know what we thought we could do, but it was just better than being close to them and being there, erm, and so we ran out on that, I think this road unfortunately is called, erm, which road is it, Cemetery Road I think it’s called, I seem to remember noticing it because it seemed like a horrible, I think it’s this bit here”.
4078 “It covers quite a lot of area”.
Reply “You’re basically out on, I think this is Cemetery Road or one of these roads and it just takes you out down the coast and there’s lots of new build sort of resorts going up”.
4078 “And all the areas that made a search, with hindsight or at the time, there was nothing that you can think of that might be relevant to?”
Reply “No, because as you went on you’d meet other groups, there was Nathan, one of the waterfront people, who managed the waterfront, who we’d met previous on a MARK WARNER holiday, so, you know, you’d sort of cross paths with people who were sort of searching and then, you know, it’d get deserted and there were dogs barking at you as you sort of wandered around, because some of the apartments were occupied and some were still being built, so there was a kind of a bit of, a sort of a lonely sort of isolated place, but, you know, it was all very sort of close, and there was nothing, you know, looking for sort of like funny parked cars or, erm, you know, anything really that seemed a bit odd”.
00.57.42 4078 “Did you see Kate during that initial?”
Reply “No, no, I mean, partly, you know, because I just didn’t know what to say to them and partly because by that time they were in with the Police. And then we went to bed about sort of two, three, something like that”.
4078 “You obviously found it very, very difficult seeing Gerry in that state?”
Reply “ Yeah, most, yeah, I mean, it was pretty upsetting sort of seeing him like he was and also, you know, because, you know, we thought, obviously we were all having the same sort of thoughts, that, you know, you know, paedophiles, Madeleine’s gone, a little girl. Erm, Rachael stayed at the apartment and, erm, and I think Jane did as well, erm, around. I think we, at one stage, on one of the return visits, I did go into the apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the Police and there was nothing we could do or say, so we came back out, and that’s the only time I went back into the apartment”.
4078 “When did you first become aware of what Jane had seen, can you remember?”
Reply “No, erm, I think it might, I don’t know whether she came on the same night, because I think it sort of, the realisation hit her that she might have seen something, so I think it probably, it may well have been the same night. I don’t know whether it was that night or the next day, but I feel fairly sure it would have triggered her memory, but I can’t say for definite”.
00.59.22 4078 “How are you doing?”
Reply “Umm, I’m okay, thank you”.
4078 “I think it has brought it has brought it home to all of us just, you know, what a mental trauma it has been, for you as a group of friends as well”.
4078 “Which, you know, perhaps people don’t appreciate because they just read what they read in the Press and forget that there’s a group of people who have been so affected”.
Reply “Yeah, umm, I think it’s just because it could be, so easily have been”.
Reply “I mean, initially we went through this, it could have been because of the location of the apartments, it could have been G***e, you know, we could have been the ones having to generate this, you know, and deal with it as best we could and make it useful and do something useful about it rather than just sort of collapsing. I mean, I don’t know how they’ve done it. Erm, but then, you know, it’s, and you thought, oh well, you know, maybe because Madeleine’s sort of quite, you know, (inaudible) and, you know, petite and, you know, maybe it wasn’t quite so likely. And then it, you know, sort of that goes away and then you’re left with not knowing what happened. Erm, and then as well, although we weren’t particularly close to them before, erm, we didn’t see them particularly socially until after this, it’s still, you know, none of us move on”.
4078 “How often have you been in contact with them since?”
Reply “Erm, I mean, you settle back down as time goes on and it does sort of ease itself a little bit, you are able to then sort of, to function and sort of carry on, sort of people a bit further away, and because we’re sort of further from them in terms of the usual contact, it’s not been, erm, quite so difficult for us to escape it to a certain extent. Erm, but we’d speak to them, I mean, initially it was every few days and then sort of every week and now it’s about every sort of two to there weeks”.
4078 “Yeah. There are things I can think of that I need to go back over and clarify with you”.
Reply “That’s fine. That’s fine”.
01.01.20 4078 “Do you want to carry on with that now?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
4078 “Or do you want to stop and have a break, have lunch?”
Reply “No, no”.
4078 “You want to carry on?”
Reply “I don’t think it’ll go away if we do it later anyway. But, I mean, if you’re okay?”
4078 “Yeah, fine, fine. Just, I will ask the things that I can think of then, because otherwise I may forget later, you know, it probably won’t take very long anyway, because we will need to do further interviews later. At the beginning of your recall of Thursday?”
4078 “Well not at the beginning, at the beginning of the evening, you mentioned that you went back, after you had been to the beach, you went back to the room and got your tennis equipment?”
4078 “Had you taken tennis equipment with you?”
Reply “On holiday?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, so we had took trainers and sort of, you know, the kit and the tennis racquets”.
4078 “Okay. Do you know whether the rest of the group had taken equipment or was it available to hire there?”
Reply “It’s available from the hire, I mean, definitely, I’m not sure if Gerry and Kate, I think everybody else didn’t take tennis kit and hired it, and I know for a while we had two tennis racquets sitting in one of the buggies that were owned by the, erm, by the MARK WARNER complex. Erm, they have been returned since, but they were definitely, at least two. I don’t think Dave and Fiona and I don’t think Russell and Jane and I’m not sure about Gerry and Kate, whether they took the stuff with them”.
01.02.39 4078 “Okay. And the only other thing I can think of at this point in time. You mentioned that after it was discovered that Madeleine had gone, everyone was running around and you were conscious that there was no organisation. Did you take it upon yourself to start organising?”
Reply “No, and this is again, this is the sort of, another thing that, you kind of know the theory, well it’s just from sort of reading sort of novels and just sort of being sensible, there was obviously, you know, (inaudible) there is obviously a time that you need to get everything done sort of pretty fast, because, you know, if you just think about it logically now, I know that’s what we were thinking at the time, but you just see so many people running around, looking in hedgerows, that’s fine if she’s just wandered off, you’re going to find her even if it takes half an hour, but if she’s been driven by somebody at speed, you need to get onto that, get orders, whatever, and whatever response you think you need or we thought locally we’d need, I mean, you just sort of start that straight away. But there was that initial inertia of, are we sure she’s really gone, are you sure she’s not there and she’s sort of hiding in the bathroom or something, erm, before it sort of kicked in. But, you know, I was going, we need to have a plan, but everybody had already run, there was nobody to sort of impose it upon. And, you know, I don’t know that, I think if I’d done anything differently I would have stood by the desk and said, no, you must ring now, you really must, rather than just sort of saying, oh, you know, and sort of at the back of my mind thinking, well maybe they’re right, maybe I’ll go back and she’s just turned up and that’ll be absolutely fantastic, maybe I’m wasting his time, but I didn’t stand over the desk and say, do it. Erm, but, aside from that, there was no real, you know, sort of structured plan of what we should do”.
01.04.26 4078 “And, as time went on, did you, as a group, become more structured in what you were doing because of the way circumstances unfolded?”
Reply “Erm, we became more structured, in that, we didn’t do anything, in terms of, you know, life then just became, you know, one wander to child care and back and interviews and alike from there. I think the media side of things, which we, erm, I think a lot of people informed the media straight, erm, sort of fairly quickly, because we know James LANDALE who does BBC News twenty-four, erm, sort of personally, and his wife, and we did ring them. I mean, you know, I think we were asked not, you know, people suggesting that it wouldn’t be a good idea to the Press, but, and they may be right, but, as a group, we thought that you need some exposure on this because if you need to get it out there. And that was sort of as much a criticism, erm, it wasn’t sort of a criticism of the Portuguese Police, it was just that it felt like the right thing to do and it just seemed like a good idea at the time, you know, to sort of try and get some exposure. And I think we rang up James or his wife, Kath LANDALE, and asked, you know, how we, how you could do that and they gave us a number. And then I think, we hadn’t, erm, I think then there was phone contact between Rachael and the desk, saying, you know, do you want to go forward with this, because we, we mentioned it but didn’t sort of authorise anybody to sort of to go, because we hadn’t spoken to the Police yet, we didn’t know what they wanted to do, erm, and how they’d feel about it, so we held it back, but I think there were people within the group and it sort of got out pretty quickly”.
4078 “There has been”.
Reply “In terms of organisation, no, I think it was, we were pretty useless as a group, you know. I mean, the extended family for Gerry and Kate, erm, were useful, I think we were just shocked”.
4078 “Well it wasn’t just Gerry and Kate that needed the support really when you look back”.
Reply “No. Yeah, we got plenty of that”.
01.06.30 4078 “And I assume you all are still now”.
4078 “It was obviously very, very hard for you all. There has been a kind of a timeline that was drawn up between the group?”
4078 “I can’t confidently say who did it or when it was drawn up, but what can you tell me about that?”
Reply “I think, the timeline has been sort of, you know, we all thought it was a good idea, you know, (inaudible) Gerry and Kate were there, you know, with the Police trying to sort things out and we were sort of, the rest of the group sort of were trying to make sense of it and do what we thought we could to help, so the timeline, we sort of said, if we write down everything then while our memory’s fresh we’ll remember what we did, you know, it should help, you know, it may help. Erm, and we then, we actually took it into the first interview and said, look, we’ve done this and they said, no, you can’t read from that. And, of course, you can understand now why it didn’t seem like a good idea, but at the time it just seemed like a sensible thing to do to try and get all our recall of everything that we’d done down as fast as possible. And I think there were various attempts, erm, and I think we sort of might, erm, I don’t know whether there was anything done on the night, but the next sort of day or two, certainly in the first two days, erm, we got together to go through it. But it was mostly us not Gerry and Kate, I think they, they might have contributed to it later”.
Reply “And we got a computer I think to write it down so we could hand it over”.
4078 “Okay. I think we are going to stop here. I need to collect my thoughts and go back and speak to the people monitoring to find out if, up until this point, we have missed out anything between us”.
01.08.05 4078 “Once we have done that and we have gone back over things that we might have missed”.
4078 “Then we will move on to just sort of mop up really the rest of the Portuguese questions”.
4078 “And the telephone, there isn’t much telephone (inaudible), as I said earlier, and then Gerry and Kate’s questions. But during those processes again we will be stopping to check to see if there is any more things that come up”.
Reply “Fine, yeah”.
4078 “I know that lunch arrived probably about half an hour ago and you have had a difficult hour, so we will have a break now”.
Reply “Yeah, okay”.
4078 “So it is now three minutes past one and we will end this interview”.
SM M OLDFIELD 09.04.08
00:00:02 4078 "Okay its eighteen minutes past three on the afternoon of Wednesday the ninth of April two thousand and eight. We’re in an interview room at Force Headquarters and I’m DC FERGUSON from the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit.”
Reply "And I’m Matthew David OLDFIELD.”
4078 "Thank you Matthew. We’ve just done a quick interview and covered some of these questions I’m about, well all of the questions I’m about to put to you again, unfortunately because of a technical problem we’re having to go through it so I apologise again for that and I’ll just rattle off the questions if I may.”
Reply "Yeah that’s fine.”
4078 "The first one was, when did you last see Madeleine?”
Reply "Err I’m not quite sure when I last saw her because it depending on whether we had lunch together as a group in David and Fiona’s, which err we may have done on the last day because it got more common as we went through the week but it was more common for the six in terms of the, David, Fiona, already in the apartment of course with Dianne and err Russ and Jane and G***e and Rachael and I to go up there and have lunch as a group than it was to have err the full complete group there at lunch time. Err but it would seem now, it probably wasn’t until the day previously because we’d seen them in the evening after their usual tea so I think on that day, on the final, on the Thursday when we came back up from tennis I’m not sure that Kate and the children err were there outside the tennis court when we arrived because we arrived late and it would have been about bedtime so I can’t specifically recall whether I saw Madeleine at that point, but we sort of arrived, err it wasn’t sort of big groups who were doing the usual sort of chasing games, they may have gone earlier because everybody else of course was still down with our wives, down in the err down at the restaurant on the beach so it would have been quite sort of the same sort of playgroup and they may have, I think they went back and they were gone by the time I got to the tennis courts.”
00:01:49 4078 "Okay. We also covered on the last interview, did you ever leave your apartment by the poolside door?”
Reply "And we did if it was err during the day and there was one of us in the apartment then we’d have gone in and out through the patio door because it was the most direct way to get to the err pool and the Tapas restaurant err but otherwise certainly in the evening we’d have locked that patio door because you couldn’t lock it from the, err you could only lock it from the inside, its like a snick connector, I don’t know why I keep saying snick but I don’t know whether its a northern term, but there was a little hasp on the handle that you lock over to lock the patio doors and you can only do that from the inside, it wasn’t lockable from the out so we’d shut that and gone back out the other door and locked that. So during the day we might have done to get in and out to get equipment but err at night, no.”
00:02:38 4078 "So at night times you’d always have that door locked when you’d exit?”
Reply "The patio door would be locked and you’d go out through the…”
4078 "Gone through the other…”
Reply "Main door and lock that one.”
4078 "Which then you locked behind you.”
4078 "After you went.”
Reply "You had to lock it because it would open on the, it wouldn’t shut through like a Yale lock it would close just on a, on a handle that opened it.”
4078 "So to generalise then, whenever you were all out of your apartment it was locked?”
4078 "And whenever you were sort of coming or, and going unless somebody remained within the apartment…”
Reply "It would...”
4078 "The patio door could have been open?”
4078 "Or at least not locked.”
Reply "Yeah, because usually if err, if it was reasonable weather err Rachael or, would have been sat in the sunshine, essentially reading it book it’d be, so that probably would, probably have been open but somebody would have been sat on top of it so err while G***e slept at lunch time.”
4078 "Okay. And then just to mop up the questions that were outstanding from the Portuguese, when you went into check Madeleine, Sean and Amelie the evening that Kate asked you to do that on the third of May, when you went in through their patio door did you close that after you went in?”
00:03:44 Reply "Err I, I’m fairly sure I would have closed that, if not completely to, I’m pretty sure the more I think about it though I would have closed it to, because I wouldn’t have wanted there to be err a sort of a funny draught or, or some noise, or something that made the door slam that would have woken them up so I pulled it to, behind me, but I can’t guarantee it was completely shut, but it would have been there or thereabouts.”
4078 "And then when you left after the check…”
Reply "And certainly when I left it would have been completely closed.”
4078 "And we covered the weather, you can’t remember it being a particularly windy night.”
Reply "No I don’t remember much about the weather on that night err I’m just thinking more about when we were actually running along the beach and along the err and along the front doing the, the search and I don’t recall it being err particularly windy but as I think we said but last time it was windy enough for us to sail in the afternoon but they didn’t necessarily translate it to have been windy in the evening.”
00:04:46 4078 "Then there was the question of obviously you said when you think you may have seen Madeleine last and I asked did you see the MCCANN’S during the afternoon of the third of May?”
Reply "Err I don’t recall seeing Kate because I think she was gone by the time we got back up from, err from the restaurant to get the tennis gear but I would have seen, I saw Gerry because he was playing tennis with the social group which was the, the social session tennis, which was what we were coming back up to attend. So he was definitely there, I would have said hello to him.”
4078 "And prior to that you were on the beach because you’d been sailing?”
Reply "We’d been sailing and we hadn’t, because it was a bit of a walk down to the beach we hadn’t gone down to the beach particularly frequently, we thought we’d get down more often than that but it was, by the time the girls had woken up it was just time for, to get them ready to muck about a bit and go to the, go to the pool or to the slide before it was their tea time and then they’d join the rest of the group from there so we didn’t go down to the beach particularly much, we did on that last day, mostly because we hadn’t done it or even that week and it was a bit of a waste and you know because Russell and err and I were already there on the boat.”
00:05:50 4078 "But neither of the MCCANN’S were there on the boat?”
4078 "Okay, we went through the phone number and I gave you a phone number which I’ll just read out for the benefit of anyone watching this DVD, it’s ............................ Reply "Its not a number I recognise and it’s got that, I wondered whether it the part of the hospital because its got that repeat that it’s the ......... that makes it sound like a, an official…”
Reply "Building but its not our hospital number so err I don’t recognise it, I can’t find it on my, my phone.”
00:06:32 4078 "Okay, I think we also spoke about, and I specifically asked you about the tennis equipment that the MCCANN’S may have had.”
Reply "Yeah, and I don’t recall seeing that they had some err I think they’re more likely than Russell and, and Dave to actually have their own tennis gear because I think they were more serious about their, their sport in some ways err I know Russell definitely and I think err both Russell, Jane, Dave and Fiona all borrowed equipment from the tennis people. Gerry and Kate I think borrowed as well err and I can’t remember having their, their own kit but I didn’t specifically notice it and it didn’t remember seeing err tennis bags but I wasn’t in the apartment and we didn’t travel together at the same time so I may be wrong about that.”
4078 "We then went through questions from Kate and Gerry so…”
4078 "What I’m going to do is go through your responses and if there’s anything that I say that you don’t agree with then speak up. We’ve covered how long you knew Kate and Gerry, you said you’d never visited their home address, you’ve not been on holiday with them before and on the holiday that you did go on with them you met them sort of during the evenings, err sort of late afternoon and in the evenings.”
Reply "Yeah, there’d been a couple of lunch times. I suppose the only caviat after that is the wedding, that wasn’t really, oh there was a holiday, it wasn’t really a, there was kind of a, the only time…”
00:08:00 4078 "I suppose yeah because it was in Italy wasn’t it.”
Reply "So it was technically more than just a, you know.”
4078 "Mm, and you went for your run with Kate on the Wednesday or so.”
4078 "In relation to the children, you saw them at playtime, sort of after tea.”
Reply "Yeah, drop off at nursery just for, for the twins because they were in the same area as G***e.”
4078 "And have you ever felt that you had a reason to become somehow concerned about the children?”
Reply "No, not at all, and I think we talked in an earlier interview, but they were always, it was always very appropriate, they were well rounded, appropriately confident, they weren’t particularly clingy you know they weren’t scared of their parents it was all, it was all very normal.”
4078 "You’ve gone through when you saw them on the third of May and your arrival at the Tapas bar, who was already there? You already said it was Kate and Gerry and you think they may have been talking to somebody else but you can’t clearly remember who.”
4078 "And then you just sat down, as far as you recall you sat down as normal.”
4078 "And then everyone else duly arrived.”
Reply "Yeah, there was derogatory things about time keeping for Dave and Fiona.”
4078 "In relation to Kate and Gerry’s behaviour it was completely normal.”
Reply "Completely normal throughout the meal and, you know, at all times really until after the event, and then it was appropriate.”
00:09:20 4078 "We’ve already gone through who left the table and at what stages on the previous, or on our initial interview. And it, and also you’ve already told me that when Kate got back to the table she was literally bordering on being hysterical.”
4078 "Once she’d discovered that Madeleine was missing.”
Reply "I mean that bit, you, you heard her calling before she got back to the table I mean you know she was, you know she must have been half way down the, the route between her room and, err between their room and the restaurant so you heard her before you saw her err and you could just hear the panic in her voice but then it was just everybody run, rushing back to the apartment so you know I don’t think she got as far as the table before we were all up and, and going.”
4078 "And then the question of were you shocked about what she said, you were shocked at the facts that she was reporting.”
4078 "But you were, they were very appropriate in the way that she was saying…”
4078 "If you imagined yourself in her shoes.”
Reply "Yeah, yeah.”
00:10:21 4078 "I mean you obviously would be distraught.”
Reply "That moment is just it can’t be, it’s just not possible, it just doesn’t really happen apart from on the news and in stories obviously it does happen but you know the, it was just completely non-real for the, for, for the moment and its only as things went on that it became err became reality because you were just hoping and expecting that it was just going to be some dreadful mistake and that she was wrong, and it just takes a while for that to really hit, it is actually happening.”
4078 "You didn’t really go into the MCCANN’S apartment after that, you saw Gerry and Kate on the sofa and they were engaged with the Police at that stage.”
Reply "Yeah they were obviously later in the…”
4078 "And you didn’t see the twins so therefore you didn’t notice anything unusual about them because you hadn’t seen them anyway.”
00:11:11 4078 "You’ve already given an account of how you got involved in the searches and the fact that you went to speak to people at reception, and you noticed Nathan, somebody from Mark Warner.”
Reply "Yeah, water front manager err who we’d met before on a previous Mark Warner holiday. I think he recognised us or maybe he recognised Rachael and then the association to me err but err yeah we knew, we’d met him before.”
4078 "And you didn’t really see Kate so you couldn’t comment on her reaction after the first ten minutes when…”
Reply "No, I mean who was, it was just indirectly through you know Fiona and people sort of (inaudible) and seeing you know, how upset and everything she was, but i didn’t directly see her.”
4078 "And with Gerry, you said he was absolutely distraught.”
4078 "And you felt their behaviour was completely appropriate under the circumstances.”
Reply "Yeah, I mean he was just saying his thoughts to me and we all thought about our own children and how it would be and if a child goes missing and then taken out the room you assume the worst and you assume the worst thing that could possibly happen to them and just the, the difficult thing for all of us you know, the thing that always concerns about leaving them in their rooms till we’d thought about it and talked about in between couples and between Rachael and I was, I mean, the worst thing you go well, you know, why you worrying so much, they’re locked in, they’re safe, the worst thing that can happen is they wake up and not really know where you are for five, ten minutes, and first that’s pretty unlikely, G***e sleeps all the way through nearly, you know, nine times out of a hundred, and at worst she’s gonna be upset for ten minutes and then you’re gonna be, you’re gonna be there err just the thought of something like this is just, err completely just out of our experience you know, it was just awful.”
00:13:00 4078 "Did you notice Kate and Gerry talking to anybody unknown during the evening meal?”
Reply "No, err no, not that weren’t known to all of us as part of the, err either the rest of the holiday group or err staff.”
4078 "And did you see them…”
Reply "Nobody stuck in…”
4078 "Sorry. Did you see them inside a car during the holiday?”
Reply "No, no I didn’t know there was a car.”
4078 "Then there was this awkward question that, is there any supplementary explanation…”
4078 "That you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth.”
Reply "No there’s nothing that we haven’t, err I haven’t suggested or thought of (inaudible).”
4078 "I think we also clarified the point that the time that you went in to check on Madeleine and the twins was the only time you went into their apartment to check the children.”
4078 "And your normal priority was really to check G***e.”
4078 "Which you and Rachael had been doing between you at natural intervals.”
Reply "Yeah, and it just fell to each couple to err to check each others and then, I think I might have mentioned in one of the previous ones they, Dave and Fiona had a, had a monitor stretched the distance across from the, their apartment to ours and it was just that as the holiday went on and you knew from better, it seemed like the sort of nice thing to do, to, offer to do it on that last, on the last night, but it wasn’t usual routine err for us to check on each other’s children, it may be different for Dave and Fiona you know Gerry and Kate better and their children better err but for us it only, you know, during the holiday it didn’t seem appropriate at the beginning, it wouldn’t be our natural response to do it.”
00:14:33 4078 "And in relation to checking G***e, because it was like at natural intervals your guess is it was sort of every, between every fifteen to thirty minutes.”
Reply "Yeah I think thirty would be the, the outside err because I mentioned earlier I’m a fairly fast eater and I was finished and rather than just sitting there twiddling my thumbs while everybody else was still eating, I’d have usually gone, I say I volunteered to do it so I probably did more of the checking on G***e than Rachael although she would have done during the days of the holiday.”
4078 "Okay. I’m just going to make sure that I’ve got everything that we’ve previously covered.”
Reply "Okay, I remembered (inaudible).”
Reply "Yeah that’s fine.”
00:15:08 DC FERGUSON left the interview room.
00:16:00 DC FERGUSON re-entered the interview room.
4078 "There was one thing we forgot.”
4078 "Robert MURAT.”
Reply "Oh yeah, err never saw him, I didn’t see him on the night but I wasn’t around the apartment as much. I know he, that Rachael and Fiona saw him on that night but I didn’t recognise him when the, when the picture came up and they all suddenly went we saw that man on the night. He didn’t mean anything to me, err I’d not seen him. The first I’d seen him was on the, on the news. I had no interaction with him then and I know he interviewed err or translated at the Police Station but he wasn’t involved in any translation for me and I hadn’t see him before.”
4078 "Okay. Thank you. It’s now fifteen thirty four, is there anything else that you needed to say before we finished?”
Reply "We covered the re-enactment (inaudible).”
4078 "Well we did speak about the re-enactment last time.”
Reply "Yeah I just remembered when you said that you remembered some…”
Reply "For something else. Err and I think for, for us it was a question of (sighs) we’d do anything that would make a difference to this. If it was gonna be genuinely helpful then there’d be no question that we’d go and do it. There are a number of sort of practical issues in terms of you know childcare and would it be the seven or would it be the whole nine, I mean err you know to recreate the entire night. It would need to be Gerry and Kate, of course they are arguidos and they’d be feel, I’m sure they’d feel a bit more nervous about going back to do it once that was err whilst they would struggle under that and I think from our point of view we couldn’t see, or from my point of view I can’t see quite what extra would people get out of it given that we’ve already given the statements err and timeline and been questioned about that as much as we can remember it, so we’d basically just be following what we, what we said in terms of timing and we have concerns that it’s not really gonna add anything and maybe that if you were to play devil’s advocate and be very suspicious you might be saying it was just being done to create a problem and create inconsistencies. Now that might not be the case and there may be very good reasons that something else would come out of it but in terms of how it’s gonna help find Madeleine I don’t see yet why that would be a benefit, and its use such as whether not necessarily the Police sort of video but whether somebody sort of in all the apartments that overlooks it could be videoing it and releasing it in sort of an edited form or, or just in general because there’s been moments when we’ve sat round a table going, did you sit there and looking at watches and it might look a bit sort of odd and we wouldn’t want that to be out in the err out in the open without good err you know good a, a reason to think that it was going to beneficial.”
00:18:35 4078 "I think you also mentioned that you were concerned about perhaps the weather conditions might not be the same as they were that night.”
Reply "Yeah, I think that was more of the practical side that if it, if its being done now because of the weather conditions then what happens if it was, you know, stormy for a week, I mean it wouldn’t be quite the same, it might be darker because the storm clouds would, would that then mean that we’d wait for a week or two, how open ended would it be err and also a bit of concern that this is a sensitive time, its going to be a year anniversary.”
Reply "And you know Kate would rather be doing, and all of us would rather be doing something that was err a more sort of reflective on the time rather than being, I suppose the horror of that night and getting on that particular anniversary time, the timing is not good.”
Reply "You know, I can understand the reasons for asking for it for being the same time of year.”
4078 "Yeah. So you’re not sort or refusing to attend the re-enactment because of just being awkward.”
4078 "You’re just, can’t see the value in it.”
4078 "And you have a number of concerns that you’d like to be resolved before you commit yourself.”
Reply "Yeah, and I think I’m fairly sure everybody else will say similar sort of thing. I think Gerry and Kate, a bit more tricky from err the legal point of view.”
Reply "And actually, bizarrely enough I’ve got, I was supposed to be going on a friends, supposed to be a friends stag do that weekend and the best man rang up and said we’re now going to Lisbon, well maybe not that weekend, it might not be the best but I might have been out there anyway, but its not gonna happen now.”
4078 "Okay, is there anything else?”
Reply "No, no I don’t think so.”
4078 "Thank you for your patience.”
Reply "No that’s alright.”
4078 "It’s now fifteen thirty eight and we’ll finish this interview.”
00:20:14 The interview ceased at 1538 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
Justice has prevailed. From the bottom of our hearts, thank you to all who have made this possible.